George Saunders in conversation with Rick Rubin
On creativity as reaction, the ghost that meets the reader, and maximum choice points
“Being a great artist has something to do with creating the maximum number of choice points” —George Saunders
On a sunny afternoon, George Saunders and Rick Rubin sat down to talk about the nature of creativity, the practice of writing, and the art of reading for the Tetragrammaton podcast.
Enjoy this brief excerpt from their conversation.
The discussion travelled far beyond this point. You can find the full episode here or by clicking the link to any topic below:
Creativity, Permission, and Talent
00:03:55 Creativity as reaction
00:04:39 Permission to write badly
00:05:47 Writing without knowing what you are
00:06:54 Lincoln in the Bardo begins
00:10:39 Respect, intimacy, and the reader
00:11:30 The ghost that meets the reader
Empathy Is the Method
00:12:15 Buddhism, Catholicism, and meditation
00:14:20 Empathy as a novelist’s superpower
Systems and Ideas
00:20:56 Ideas are overrated
00:23:25 Stories as dynamic systems
00:24:28 When meaning kills momentum
Revision as Ethics
00:27:37 Problems that make stories better
00:29:25 Keeping work private for freedom
00:36:07 Fiction as honesty by disguise
Play, Sound, Intuition
00:38:19 Letting play replace intellect
00:41:19 Dreams, intuition, and structure
00:42:22 Sound before sense
Resistance and Choice
00:45:37 Songwriting envy and resistance
00:48:31 Reading mind vs writing mind
00:49:52 Choosing which stories to finish
00:51:01 Finding serious readers
Failure, Mentors, Becoming
00:54:19 Failure as necessary correction
00:56:19 Learning effort without talent
00:58:37 Writing late and becoming a teacher
01:00:44 Aging, ambition, and gentler standards
Writing Toward Kindness
01:05:44 Editing as ethical action
01:08:03 When fiction changes the writer
01:10:41 Writing toward kindness
01:15:36 Influence without imitation
01:18:05 Reading to grant permission
01:21:12 Gogol, Babel, and sound
01:24:06 Permission-giving as lineage
01:27:19 Dreams that solve books
01:33:44 Greatness as reassurance
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As a hack writer and a Tetragrammaton fan, this interview really hit. Thank you Rick and George.
I loved this conversation, especially the part about getting “any old thing down” on paper and coming back to it. The emphasis on the writer’s reaction to it is such a refreshing approach to creativity.